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[Visual: In a bright studio, Joelle Hamilton, a woman with long brown hair wearing a black blouse, sits across a table from Daniel Dicaire, a man with short brown hair and glasses wearing a suit. They both have microphones and glasses of water in front of them, while Joelle has a tablet and Daniel has a notebook. The perspective shifts between shots of them individually and a profile shot of both of them.]

[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

Why are you so passionate about sustainability and conservation and housing?

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

There are some really exciting things happening at OCH in terms of sustainability. So we know that more efficient buildings are going to cost us less to operate in the long term.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

What are some of the ways that Canadians will feel the impact of sustainability?

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

People think that because maybe there's a premium for sustainability, that it's actually counter to affordability, right? That's a false conception.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

You're listening to In-House - Canada's Housing Podcast, where we share the latest on Canada's housing market.

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[Visual: Joelle Hamilton and Daniel Dicaire sit at the table in the studio. A box with text that reads, "Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC" appears briefly.]

[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to In-House. I'm your host, Joelle Hamilton, and today we're talking about how the housing sector can tackle climate change and prioritize sustainability and affordability. With me today is Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Sustainability and Conservation at Ottawa Community Housing Corporation, or OCH for short. Daniel, thanks for being here with us today.

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

Thank you so much for having me, Joelle. It's a pleasure to be here.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

So I first want to start by congratulating you and your team for receiving or winning CMHC's President's Medal for Outstanding Housing Research. It's a prize that we give away every year to those who really deserve it. So congratulations to you and your team.

00:01:29:00

[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

Well, thank you so much. We've been doing a lot of really innovative research for our new developments. So it's just a great opportunity to share it with as many people as possible.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

So I'd like to first start by asking you to tell us a little bit more about you, your role at OCH, and also what OCH is doing to make sustainability a key consideration in housing.

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

[Visual: A box with text that reads, "Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing" appears briefly.]

Well, I'm the senior manager for conservation sustainability at Ottawa Community Housing, and basically that touches every aspect of the organization, whether that's in new developments, existing buildings, as well as supporting our tenants and our communities at large to become more sustainable. There are some really exciting things happening at OCH in terms of sustainability. We kind of have 3 broad sectors that we're focusing on. We've got our new developments, we've got our existing buildings, and then what we call kind of our community and tenant infrastructure and support. So on the new building side of things, basically all of our new buildings are very high performance. We use the passive house standard to design all of our envelopes. We use some really high-performance mechanical systems when we design in order to be able to heat and cool our buildings. And then we incorporate as much renewable energy like geothermal or solar into that overall energy package for those buildings. When it comes to our existing buildings, those are really the important ones because they're the ones that are already with us. They will be with us for another 50 years.

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We're doing a lot of planning and kind of research. So we started with doing a GHG inventory, so “greenhouse gas emissions inventory.” We identified the 27,000 tons of emissions that OCH is responsible for. So that's our scope 1, scope 2, scope 3. And from there, we also did some pilot projects in order to try and figure out how we can decarbonize those existing buildings. So, we did the Presland Net-Zero Prefabricated Deep Energy Retrofit, one of the first in Canada, where we actually met – we converted 4 homes in 1 block of townhomes to net-zero. And then lastly, we try to take those lessons learned and bring them to the rest of the portfolio. So in order to do that, we're actually partnering with Hydro Ottawa, our local distribution company, in order to do carbon pathway studies. The goal there is that we want to incorporate the lessons learned or that decarbonization path into the existing capital plan. So when those assets that are emitting, our boilers, our air make-ups, when those come up for replacement, we know the GHG-reduction potential that we could capture with the replacements, we see the decarbonization technologies we could be using, we know the incremental cost of that over the like-for-like replacement, and obviously the potential impact that that will have on our electricity grid both at the building level and for overall Hydro Ottawa's grid. And lastly, when I mentioned the community infrastructure and support, I mentioned the 27,000 tons that OCH emits or is responsible for. There's probably about another 36,000 tons that is coming out of our communities as a result of tenant activities. So that's the natural gas they're burning in furnaces we own or their vehicle emissions or undiverted organic waste that's going to landfill. So part of our role there is we need to provide the infrastructure for the tenants to be able to do their diversion for waste, for example, or to be able to plug in a vehicle or replacing a furnace with a heat pump in order for them to be able to get off of natural gas, for example. And then the other piece of that community support is the research that we have been partnering with various institutions and organizations like University of Ottawa, University of Toronto, University of Carleton, Waterloo as well, Natural Resources Canada, the National Research Council. Basically, we've got a lot of data and we want to use it as best as possible to advance sustainability within the housing sector. And in fact, it is through that kind of research with one of our development partners that we were able to do research, which received the President's Medal Award.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

Why are you so passionate about sustainability and conservation in housing?

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

Housing is this absolutely massive opportunity, also a massive challenge. Maybe that's what's attractive about it. I mean, the building sector represents 18% of Canada's emissions, even more if we factor in some of the electricity production. There are literally thousands of buildings scattered across Canada, all of which need some good attention, and we're building more, right? So it just feels like this massive opportunity and challenge. I can remember when I interviewed for the position, it was a brand-new position. The dream scenario in my mind was, hey, being handed, you know, a building that might be a little bit old, that might need some efficiency retrofits and being able to do… to plan those retrofits. Basically, they said, that sounds great because we've got hundreds of them, right? So it was a really… I wasn't sure I'd end up here, but it's been an absolutely fantastic ride.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

So now I want to talk about the benefits of sustainability, because when we think sustainability, we might not also associate it with affordability and, like, housing that is affordable. So in the short and in the long term, what are some of the ways that Canadians will feel the impact of sustainability?

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

What you just described is exactly like… it's a key concept. People think that because maybe there's a premium for sustainability, that it's actually counter to affordability, right? I have to say that that's a false conception. And OCH kind of can see where those two meet. We very much understand that affordability and sustainability work hand in hand. They're very much linked together. As you were kind of describing, maybe the knee-jerk reaction when we've got a housing crisis is, hey, we need to increase that supply. We absolutely do. And so we want to focus on a low capital cost, maybe low rents, very low selling price. Typically, those things may not include sustainability. But we've seen that type of approach in the past, and I can attest – or we can attest that that creates something usually around energy poverty, right? Maybe your rent is $100, but then you can end up with utility bills that are $500 or $600. Really, that happens when maybe new developments aren't really bothering with airtightness or insulation levels or high-performance mechanicals or maybe they're even renting the mechanical systems rather than actually buying them outright. Really, that kind of pushes the problem around. You are basically… The savings from that process don't necessarily get translated to the actual consumer. Really, you end up with kind of a false affordability if you are lured by very low costs on your capital, but you end up with really high operating. OCH is an owner-operator of its buildings for 50 to 100 years, so we have an incentive or we're able to see that link between those operating costs as well as those capital dollars. So we know that more efficient buildings are going to cost us less to operate in the long term. And we know that we can recover the small incremental capital costs from a sustainability upgrade with the generous savings that those systems are going to provide us over the long run. Really, it's an investment in that long term. The other thing you have to realize: When we're designing buildings, it's an investment that will outlive all of us. The buildings that we're building today will be standing long after we are gone. So it's really an investment for society in the long run to make sure that those are as energy-efficient as possible. So we really have to realize if we are actually serious about affordability, we have to be serious about sustainability as well, specifically when it comes that there is a housing crisis that's also meeting a climate crisis that we're facing right now.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

Because I guess, like, the decisions that we make today are important decisions because these buildings, you know, you said a long time, like the decisions we make today impact the buildings where they're going to be in 100 years from now.

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

Exactly. You're basically locking in consumption for the next 50 to 100 years. So think –you're not thinking about the next 5 years. Designers should be thinking about 50 to 100 years. How am I impacting the future? Quite literally.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

What excites you the most about the future of sustainability in housing in Canada, you know, over the next 10 years, let's say, or more if you want to project that far?

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

How about this? I really do think that prioritizing sustainability as part of our housing in the next 10 years is absolutely crucial. At the end of the day, it really comes down to money. In order to make sustainability a priority, we need to show the boost that it can bring to the Canadian economy. And the really good news is that we're kind of sitting on a gold mine when it comes to sustainability in housing specifically. It's not only good for the planet, but there is a massive opportunity for the Canadian economy. If we're looking for jobs, we literally need thousands and thousands of skilled trades that can install the heat pumps or the high-performance windows or the insulation or the solar panels, right? In fact, we could even be inviting the same trades that are drilling oil wells to come and drill geothermal wells with the exact same equipment. And all that could not only be for new buildings, it also applies to the retrofit market of which we already know we've got hundreds of thousands of homes, right? We need the manufacturers to also come and bring this technology, provide it locally, maybe even manufacture it locally, and then train our local maintenance staff to take care of that equipment and those buildings for the next 20, 50, 100 years. It's also a great way to avoid tariffs. The vast majority of the manufacturers that are currently providing these types of technologies en masse, they're Europeans. European companies have great opportunities to create friendly partnerships that will benefit both countries. What we have to realize is that under the current system that we have, our inefficient buildings take up a lot of room on the grid and our municipalities are actually importing the vast majority of their energy. So we're kind of sending money outside of our communities. We are vulnerable to fluctuations in oil prices controlled by foreign interests. Geothermal, solar, as well as high-performance buildings kind of inherently, those are all technologies that have local jobs: we are kind of mining or accessing our own energy locally, and we could be paying local companies for local jobs and stimulating that local economy. So really, there is this massive opportunity in high-performance buildings and sustainability for the Canadian economy. We just have to grab it.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

How will Canadians feel the impact of sustainability? And a follow-up question to that is, what does this all mean for the average Canadian who is looking for a place to live?

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

Absolutely. Here's how I see the impact on the average Canadian: So Canadians are absolutely right to be asking for affordable housing. That is, it makes perfect sense. But as I described before, affordability and sustainability are linked together. And if we don't address sustainability while we're addressing our affordability, similar to the situation I was describing before, you can end up with maybe societal energy poverty. We have to realize that we are all linked by our electricity grid, our utility grid, and that really ties our future together. So what would societal energy poverty look like? Let's say that we keep building to the energy-efficiency standard that we did 30 years ago, and we don't retrofit any of those buildings that are currently on there. Those inefficient buildings, they're kind of like a car at the grocery store that's taking up 2 parking spots. They're taking up more than their share of the room, right? And so what that means is that we're limiting the capacity on our grid. So you can't fit as much volume of housing that we need that those Canadians are demanding onto that existing infrastructure. And at the end of the day, that means fewer homes get built or connected, and the homes that do get connected end up with higher utility costs. So, in that situation, you're actually setting up billions of dollars in housing crisis that will be shortly followed by billions of dollars in infrastructure crisis, right? You really have to address those two together and that's what I'm hoping Canadians can see. If we really want to address housing affordability, we should really be demanding that all new housing be high performance and that we retrofit our existing buildings. That is how we're going to have ample amounts of space on our existing infrastructure in order to add that huge amount of volume that we need to address our housing crisis. We need to recognize that preserving our existing infrastructure, our existing housing stock is required as part of increasing the overall housing stock. That way, if we were able to do that, we'd be able to add more housing to the grid that would be affordable, the utilities that are powering those homes would be just as affordable, we'd be sending extremely clear market signals that would reduce the cost of both the technology and the housing overall, and all that money would be spent on Canadian companies paying Canadian workers. That's really the opportunity for Canadians in sustainability in housing.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

I'd like to end this episode by finding out a little bit more about what you and OCH are up to in the next year and where we can stay up to date for new developments coming out of OCH.

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

Absolutely. So OCH is currently delivering some high-performance housing. As I mentioned, we've delivered 600 units over the past few years. We've got another 600 that is in construction and we're aiming to have over 1,000 in design, kind of ready to go, and you'll find that on our website. At the same time, we are preparing our existing building stock to decarbonize through those carbon pathway studies that I was describing. We want to know how we can decarbonize our existing assets according to our capital plan. And I would encourage any building owner, any portfolio manager to also be pursuing that type of decarbonization capital plan because we all need to do this together. And for supports in the community, you're going to see we're implementing some car-share programs. We are adding EV charging stations to our buildings to give access to tenants in order for them to decarbonize their transportation. We are doing waste diversion so that the large volume of organics that's coming through our high rises could actually be diverted and therefore we save space in our landfill as well as reduce the overall GHG emissions. So there's some really exciting stuff coming out of sustainability at OCH.

00:17:21:00

[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

Does your team sleep? Like, you guys are working on so many different things. And so I was like, do they sleep?

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[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

Here's the thing: One, it's a very, very small team when you're talking about the sustainability department. Specifically, we're only a group of three.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

Okay.

00:17:38:00

[Speaker: Daniel Dicaire, Senior Manager of Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing]

But we end up working in everybody else's jurisdiction. As we were describing before, sometimes that can cause frictions, but in a way, we have to leverage the rest of the organization's resources because we're not the ones doing the boiler replacements, we're helping them make that boiler replacement more efficient. We're not the ones replacing light bulbs, we're helping write the specs, we're helping find the funding to be able to do those projects. We're supporting finance officers in accessing funding, preparing proposals. So it's, I really have to stress, it is a huge team effort in order for OCH to be able to achieve the sustainability targets that it's doing right now.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

So that's already it for today's episode. A big thank you to you, Daniel, for spending time with us in the studio today. We're very excited to follow you and OCH's progress over the next year. And thank you to everyone who took the time to join us today In-House.

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[Speaker: Joelle Hamilton, Communications & Marketing - CMHC]

Did you know we're not just on YouTube?

00:18:40:00

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You can now find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Amazon Music.

00:18:45:00

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Don't miss our next episodes for more real, data-driven discussions. If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please share this episode, follow us, or subscribe.

00:18:57:00

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Reach out, let us know what you think. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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